The Power of Kinship
I'm Sarah Lange and I'm here to spark the philanthropy revolution. The word philanthropy means love of mankind. My show is all about the ways we can open our doors and hearts so we can do more good.
Sarah: Hey everybody, thanks for joining us. I'm Sarah Lange and today I have this awesome guest, Chris Baker from The Other Ones Foundation in Austin, Texas. And Chris and I have known each other a little bit, Full transparency. The Other Ones Foundation was on, what was it, season six of Queer Eye?
Chris: Yeah, season six, episode eight.
Sarah: Yeah, so I am a total Queer Eye fan and I was binging it out in Arizona and I saw Chris and his organization founded, featured, and I was like, “ah, I gotta get in touch with these guys.” So cold call and said, “hey, can I help you guys out?” And that's how we got to know each other and that's how we ended up in each other's universes. So lesson, don't be afraid to do the reach out, right?
Chris: Yeah, just call.
Sarah: Just call, right?
Chris: And ask, ask, always ask.
Sarah: Always ask, always asking, right? So Chris, why don't you tell us a little bit about The Other Ones Foundation and also the work that you guys do?
Chris: Sure, so we're a homeless service nonprofit based here in Austin. We have a whole variety of programs. We kind of cover the whole spectrum of homeless services so we do everything from street outreach and basic needs services that are kind of happening on the street level, all the way through to housing stability services. So from the time somebody is, we have a full spectrum of services from the time someone is on the street and just basically need to survive all the way through to getting them into housing and supporting them while they're in housing. The kind of intermediary there and the big project that we're kind of known for right now is the Esperanza Community, which is a sort of a cabin style non congregate shelter complex in Southeast Austin, where we currently have about 100 residents living. And we're about halfway through the construction of that project. As of today, we're about to have our big launch or grand opening party for the first phase of that project. And we're looking forward to continuing on.
Sarah: Yeah, so my understanding is that you're looking to build 200 units.
Chris: Yeah, so for the first phase, well, I say the first phase, the first chunk of the Esperanza Community project is for 200 non congregate shelter units on seven acres. Like I said, we're about halfway there now. A few months ago, we were given a provisional award from the Texas Department of Housing and Community Affairs to build an additional non congregate shelter to develop another tract of land with non congregate shelter. And so we're still kind of figuring out what that means and what that looks like and how many that's gonna be but it looks like we're gonna be building for quite some time to come.
Sarah: Your expert said it, right?
Chris: I mean, I wouldn't say that. We're experts at something. We actually like it's, you know, I've always been really all about like, I mean, I'm just like kind of a dope. I have been really fortunate to surround myself with experts in a whole variety of things. And it's what's really made, I think our organization successful and kind of going into the construction project. You know, we were like, I mean, I say we, maybe I was like, “well, we'll just put a bunch of like, we'll get a bunch of like prefab units and just like put them on the ground and we'll, you know, maybe run some power and water to them and that'll be easy, right?” And it's like kind of a rude awakening. Like, “no, that is like actually a major construction project. And how about next time you like hire a general contractor” and, you know, because we've done everything that we've done so far, we've acted as our own GC, we've done our own project management, which is like “not how you're supposed to do it.” But you know, it's been, we've tried to do it in a way that's been cost effective and try to keep as much of it in the house as possible. Future development projects, our expertise will be in telling someone else what we need them to do for us.
Sarah: I love that. So Chris wants to know what is non-congregate shelter?
Chris: That is such a good question. Yeah, I throw that term around as though everybody knows what it means. So non-congregate shelter is essentially a type of emergency shelter whereby it's a temporary living situation for someone who's not a tenant, they don't pay rent, but they have their own unit, their own living unit, their own domicile, right? So the non-congregate shelter sort of exists on a spectrum. The way that we do it here at the Esperanza community for the current project is everyone has a cabin that they live in. It's a little over a hundred square feet. The cabins are not plumbed. They have heating and air conditioning and electricity. There's a picture of one. Yep, that's exactly what one of our units looks like. That is one of our units. And so we call it non-congregate shelter to make the distinction from congregate shelter, which is sort of the traditional sort of mission style dormitories that's what comes to mind when you say homeless shelter. And so this is a different model of doing shelter, but it's still emergency shelter. So we're not a permanent, we're not the permanent solve to a person's housing crisis, but part of the work that we do when people are staying here is we work towards what that permanent solve in the housing crisis is. And so when I say we do this whole spectrum of services, what I mean by that is, we meet somebody on the street, we help take care of them, we get them into work programs, then we get them into shelter, and then we get them into housing.
Sarah: Yeah, that's so beautiful. I love that you guys do the full continuum because I think in the social service sector, what I see and what kind of breaks my heart is there's so much siloing. So somebody has to go to agency A to get maybe some emergency supplies so they can survive on the street. Then maybe they go to another place for work stuff. Maybe then they have to go to someplace else to get temporary housing or get an ID card or find a work placement. So I just think it's great that you guys have this seamless continuum of care for people because there's so many times where I see people falling through the cracks between the steps. And I love that you guys just walk people all the way through. And the other thing that I wanna dive into today is this idea of kinship that you guys use. And I really love that you're not only walking people through, but that you use the kinship model to do that. I'm wondering if you can tell us sort of like, what is kinship? Where did it come from? And then how do you know that you're operating in kinship?
Chris: Yeah, I mean, I will answer that question kind of two ways. One is the more kind of philosophical idea behind that word and what it means to us. And then maybe give you a little bit of like, sort of hard information about how we put that into action. So I wanna like take just a very, I wanna go down a very quick bunny trail here and just say, you know, in your intro, I heard you say that like philanthropy is love of fellow man, which is a beautiful thing. And I think that like, one of the things that we get caught up in when we're doing human services, especially like independent nonprofits, is that we kind of get used to the idea of like what we're gonna be, what we're gonna have to serve people with is the leftovers, you know? And what we, like what people come to expect is not the best of what we have. And so we have this like charity, sort of like rattling tin cup mentality. Whereas when we, my philosophy of serving people is that like, we don't give them the leftovers, we always give them the best of what we have. You know, you wouldn't like invite somebody into your home for dinner and like, you know, you and your family sit around and have, you know, this big, beautiful spread while your guests eat like yesterday's leftovers, you know? You wouldn't do that. And so like being in, so that's like sort of the general basis, like sort of the underlying philosophy behind like what, why this like, this idea of kinship is really important. The other thing about it is that I'm a big believer that sort of the primary reason why people fall into homelessness is because the support network has collapsed. And the support networks collapse for a great many reasons. You know, you can throw a rock and hit some societal ill that causes families to fall apart. But it's the sort of like the dissolving or never existing of family and community that caused people to fall into this condition. So the way that you counteract that and the way that you go from homelessness to homefulness is by reinstating the support network, like rebuilding the support network and reframing the idea of like provider and client as, you know, two equally important pieces of, two equally important parts of the same thing that are moving in the same direction, you know? And like the, you know, people always talk about homelessness as this thing that's caused by like addiction or mental health or, you know, people losing jobs or whatever, or income, you know, all these things. But like, we all know so many people who live with one of those conditions or who have been through one of those experiences who are not homeless. And generally the reason that ‘that is’ is because when the bottom falls out and all the chips start to fall, that people have a support network to fall back on. And so, and like, it's not something that you would do for anybody, right? Like you wouldn't keep giving chances over and over and over again to somebody who you kind of vaguely know a little bit or like, you know, an acquaintance, right? But somebody you have a deep, meaningful, familial relationship with, you're gonna go to the end of the earth to make sure that they don't fall through the cracks. So that's, and then it's, and then, I mean, it kind of goes all ways too, right? Because it's not just about the people that we serve. It's also about the community that we serve. It's about the donors that we serve. It's about our staff that we serve, you know, that we are all, you know, we're all members of the same community and we all want the same thing. And the best way to get there is by meeting people where they are, which is, you know, a social work concept, but is, you know, I think immediately obvious what that means, you know? Meeting people where they are and walking alongside them and treating them as though they matter just in exactly the way that they are right now. And understanding that part of the process to get you to stability is gonna be potentially talking about some of the behaviors that maybe have contributed to falling into this experience, but we're still gonna take you just like you are, you know? And that's what we do for our kids. It's what we do for our parents. It's what we do for our grandparents, our grandkids, our nieces, nephews, cousins, brothers, sisters. And we do that because we're kin. The idea of radical kinship, we didn't always call it radical kinship. We used to call it radical acceptance, which is that it doesn't matter how somebody shows up, we accept them. And I think this idea of radical kinship just takes that up a notch and this idea of radical acceptance is almost enveloped by the idea of radical kinship.
Sarah: Yeah, and that's like, I have to say that that's one of the things that I think is so beautiful about the way you run your nonprofit, as it were, because it's not just talk, like it permeates every single aspect of your operations. And I remember when I was there, I was just really taking in, watching these interactions between the people who are living at Esperanza and the staff and the respect was so profound to me. And I feel like sometimes in the nonprofit sector through various, for various reasons, we can often treat the people we're trying to serve as less than, or that they don't. So I think one of the beautiful things is you guys not only accept people for who they are, but you make them know they matter. Right now in this moment, they are worthy of love, they are worthy of respect, they are worthy of kinship. Right, and so to me, that is like the essence of philanthropy. You guys have operationalized love of mankind across the board and I just have so much respect for that. Like just watching it, like walking the walk every minute of every day. I'm sure you guys have experiences where you like, “oh, I flubbed that one up.”, but like, it's just this constant like learning process about how do you meet people where they are? Maybe there are some people with like crappy attitudes or like they don't really know how to interact respectfully because they've had to defend themselves on the streets. Like whatever it is that you guys just keep going back in and going back in, we're gonna meet you where you are, we're gonna give you the respect, we're gonna give you the dignity. And just that you're doing that from a place of honestly and truly valuing every single human in your orbit, whether they're a client or a donor or a volunteer. I just really respect and admire that about you guys.
Chris: Yeah, and it's taken a little bit of, like we've taken some unusual approaches in some areas. And I'll say like, for example, often when you are in human services, you have staff that are like expected to serve 50, 60, 70 clients at a time. And we have like a very hard cutoff at 15 clients to like a client to staff ratio in case management. And it's a wonder to me that when you have caseloads that are much bigger than that, how anything ever gets done and how you're ever supposed to build a relationship with anybody. We also have a community engagement team, like a whole team who like that's what they do is they like just are there to create engagement with the folks that are living here that are having a hard time engaging either with the community or with staff or whatever, which is not something I've ever seen anywhere else. One place that we have that we are like looking to kind of course correct and is we have not, I don't think we've been great about giving our donors the same level of care that we've given to our clients. And that's something that we're like working on fixing. And we're kind of in the middle of rebuilding our development team right now. We're kind of like working on hiring a new chief strategy officer and development director. And we have a few development associates right now we're gonna bring some more on. But like it's a piece of the overall operation. It's a big puzzle, you know? And it's a puzzle piece that is so much more important than I think I ever gave a credit for. So, I think like the, I think like, I wanna like choose my words carefully here because I think sometimes nonprofits get like a bad rap for like put investing in fundraising or investing in like administrative needs. But like, those are all the things that make everything else work, you know? And I have, it's become very clear to me in recent years that like the community of people that support the work that we do deserve the same level of care and kinship and education sometimes, right? Like bringing them into the thing.
Sarah: Yeah, so as a professional fundraiser, I'm sure you know that right now I'm like “squeee…”.
Sarah: So, I am so thrilled to hear you say that our donors require the same level of kinship because I fundamentally believe that to be true. And, you know, the average loss of donors every year in a nonprofit is up to 30% of your donor pool. Like that's a lot of work. So, I'm curious like what was it that led you to this realization or this moment where you were like, “oh, we need to course correct.” Like what were the things that you started noticing that made you decide to make this investment in fundraising?
Chris: It wasn't any one thing in particular. It was kind of like a long, long series of things. I'll be honest with you. Part of it was my own giving. And having changed my thinking on that, I'll tell you a quick story. When I was in junior college, put on a concert to raise money for the American Cancer Society. My mom had been in and out of cancer remission her whole life before she died in 2016. But I raised a bunch of money and I sent them a check. And then a few months later, they sent me like a little envelope that had a little bit of swag in it or whatever, you know. And as a young naive kid, I actually called the American Cancer Society and just whoever, poor person who answered the phone, I was like, “what the fuck is this?” Like, “what is this shit that you're sending me? This is a waste of my money.” You know what I mean? And she was so patient with me, you know, and she was like, “hey, you know a lot of that stuff is donated, like I totally hear you.” So like I have, that was like the attitude that I came into this work with, you know what I mean? And as I've, I think like part of it is over time getting to know a lot of our donors and getting to understand that like, it's not about the swag, it's about the relationship, you know, and the swag is like sometimes a way to strengthen the relationship, sort of strengthen that bond. But also like, “yeah, you can get stuff donated.” Like you can get t-shirts donated and it doesn't cost you anything. Or you can, you know, any other business, right? Like any other business is going to retain and, you know, pursue new business, right? And we are in the business of serving people. We're providing a very valuable service, not just to the people that we serve, but to our community generally. And so, you know, that requires, and you know, we are also now, we went from being a small nonprofit with like 10 people in the whole thing to like a big nonprofit with 130 staff and like, you know, several locations and a bunch of offices and a bunch of, you know, doing like, it takes, in order to be able to be an organization that does those big things, the infrastructure, the administrative infrastructure, the fundraising infrastructure, all has to be operating optimally in order for like me, right? Like for my brain to be freed up in order to go and be visionary and for our staff's brains to be freed up to go and take care of people. And it's, I think over time, I just realized like, at the end of the day, this is a business, right? And you have to, the whole nonprofit thing, like nonprofit is a tax designation, right? Like it doesn't mean, that's all that is. Like, it doesn't mean that we can't, you know, is it better to have $5 and be able to do $5 worth of services or have $100 and do $5 worth of fundraising? You know what I mean? Like, and then have $95 to do services. So like that, it just, it over time and as we've grown has become just so like abundantly obvious to me that it's really changed my thinking in a lot of ways. And our chief financial officer who really, he should be called like our chief administrative officer because he oversees all of our back office. You know, him and I used to butt heads constantly over, I would say “we should spend money on this thing.” He'd be like, ”we don't have that money.” Or I'd say, you know, we'd have a little bit of money and it's like, are we going to, you know, finally hire an HR director? Or are we gonna go buy this other, you know, this other piece of service field equipment that we need, whatever. And, you know, the whole like, “we cannot do anything else until we have a HR director, Chris.” Like there's, we can't hire another person. We can't buy another thing. Those are the sorts of things that like over time, I have become, I don't want to say disillusion. That's not the right word because it's not disillusion, it's enlightenment. I've been enlightened to like how you actually build an organization into something that functions optimally.
Sarah: Do you guys see why I love this guy? You're speaking my language. Yeah, I, and I think that's like the fact that you are freed up to be the visionary, that you just got $56 million as a recognition that you guys are doing the right thing at the right time with the right people. Like now you get to expand that work because you're walking the walk. Do you know what I mean? It's like $56 million is a lot of money, you know? And so I'm-…
Chris: More money than I've ever seen.
Sarah: I know. So like the fact that I just think that when you're doing the right thing with the right people at the right time, that just more is going to come in. And I'm really, really, really excited that you have been enlightened around fundraising. Can I like bottle you up and just take you along with me? Just convert all of this.
Chris: You know, the other thing is that there's another piece of this that I think is like important, especially like for organizations that have growing staff, that have like growing staffing needs. I had a woman come and visit with me a few years ago. And she asked, she was thinking about donating some money. And she asked if she could see our budget. And I said, “absolutely.” Totally share the budget with you. She looked at the budget and it wasn't, it was a very high level budget. It wasn't granular enough for this woman. And I said, “well, what is it specifically that you're looking for?” And she said, and I don't want to, I'm going to get very close to the exact quote, but it was something along the lines of, “we just want to make sure that we are giving money to organizations that are not wasting money on things like candy for their receptionist desk.” And it was something like that, or like “buying like candy on receptionist day.” They say it was, she said something along those lines. And I thought like, what a weird way to like kind of choose where you're going to put your community, like your investment in your community. And I will tell you right now, I think like supporting our staff with things like drinks and like snacks and good pay, like there's no like nobility in making your staff suffer because you want for, you want like the ratios of like direct assistance money to like background costs to be right. You know what I mean? Again, like the, at the end goal of this thing is different, right? Like the end goal is not to make money. And because of that, we have a different tax designation, but the end goal still needs to be supported by, in all the same ways that any other business would be supported. It's just a different goal, right? And so like, if we have staff that are miserable because they're not, they're making shit for money and they don't have, they don't feel supported, that's going to lead to worse outcomes for our people, you know, so…
Sarah: Yeah, and like, this is again, where I think it's so amazing that you guys have just infused kinship across the board, because if you really want to develop deep relationships with the folks who are on the Esperanza campus or on the street, anywhere, right? You have to invest in your staff so they have the freedom. Like, so the fact that you have a one to 15 ratio is phenomenal, right? That's a reflection of your belief in kinship and your support of kinship. Because if I only have 15 people that I need to get to know, that is way easier than 60, 75. And I'm going to feel supported in my need to develop a relationship with them. You know, developing relationships takes time, it takes energy, and it also takes the staff person being in the right headspace, right? And so if I'm worried about how am I going to pay my rent? How am I going to put food on the table? I'm not going to be present with the folks that I'm serving. And so again, to me, this is just another reflection of the way that kinship works in your organization. Also, like when you pay your staff crap, they go find a better paying job.
Chris: Right, right, right.
Sarah: You can't build, turnover and kinship cannot exist in the same space. Do you know what I mean?
Chris: Right, well, I don't know. You know, we have, I mean, like staff turnover, I think in human services is always going to be an issue. You know, and like the, we're finding that like there are certain, I mean, we could just sit here and talk about staff for like the next six hours. I mean, it's all, it all revolves around the people and like the staff turnover is, it's just so expensive. It's so wasteful, you know? And it's like, you know, we're trying to figure out what is, you know, like you have a big staff, you start like sort of identifying the common threads between the people who stay and who stand out and the people who like maybe aren't really cut out for this work. I think that a lot of people come into this work with this like very idealistic, you know, like this very idealistic thought of coming and helping people. And, you know, I'll be like, you know, a lot of people that are young, that are coming out of college, especially right now, are like not really prepared to hear like a diversity of worldviews. And so when you come in as like a very well-meaning do-gooder and, you know, it can be really hard to meet somebody where they're at, if like they're coming out of a 26-year prison stint and they have a swastika tattooed on their neck, you know, like this is, but these are like some of the realities of like what we are up against, you know, like not to say that we're up against that person, but like we have some like very, very deeply hurt people and, you know, hurt people hurt people and like our staff is not immune to that. But, you know, I think like this is all to say that it is, hiring is also really important, you know, and so like how do businesses generally, right, make sure they're hiring properly? You know, it's through developing good interview practices and good policies and procedures on the hiring side. And all that is stuff that costs money to do, you know, but you do it once. Or you do it and you know, you can iterate, you know, you're in a constant state of iteration, but like, again, it all gets back to like, what are the outcomes? Are we doing the best possible services that we can? And to get to that point, like we have to invest in all of this kind of stuff, you know?
Chris: And it's the kind of stuff that like is very difficult to raise money for, you know, like, or is difficult to get grant funding for. So like we have, I mean, most of our administrative framework, which is pretty bulky, is covered by like our unrestricted funding, which is like, that's money that comes out of those five, 10, 20, $75 donations that people are making every month. Those one-offs, those $100, you know, those $500, those smaller sort of sustaining community builder memberships and single donations that come in completely unrestricted. And it's so important. And, you know, because if it wasn't for that stuff, and we're only going off of like these contracts and the big grants and stuff, then a lot of times they don't wanna pay to make sure that the electricity will stay on in the office or that the plumbing will get fixed when it breaks and that kind of stuff.
Sarah: I find that both ridiculous and hilarious. It's like, “so you want us to have staff to implement the programs, but you don't want to pay staff as overhead.” I'm like, “hmm, how about we get some robots?” Like, what is your alternative suggestion to this idea of overhead? And also, can we stop looking at overhead as an indicator of your value as a nonprofit? You know, I say this all the time. I had a cousin, Down syndrome, had to go to a special school. She's a few years younger than me. She has been able to live an independent life because she went to that school. So at that point, not only is she reaching her full potential but my aunt and uncle get to have their life too. How do you put a price on that?
Chris: Right, right.
Sarah: How do you put a price on having somebody feel like they matter in this world? You can't. I just think it's hilarious. Okay, so we're gonna look at the overhead as an indicator. How about impact and transformation instead?
Chris: Right, right. And I will say, I agree with you on all that. I will add the caveat that it is really, and this is not just in the nonprofit world. I mean, this is just like, it's good leadership. It's good business practice to make and find efficiencies where you can, you know? And we're in such a good position right now because we have been able to sort of like automate a lot of our processes so that while we have a pretty, I'm going to say very robust back office infrastructure, we're able to do it with not a ton of people. And we have, you know, we have a relatively large administrative staff, but for the size of the organization, it's actually pretty tiny. And a lot of that comes from leaning into tech, finding, you know, finding spending solutions that kind of cut out a lot of paperwork and that sort of thing. And so I think that it is incumbent on us to find efficiencies and to be good stewards of money, you know? But again, like all with the concept of like, the point here isn't to make money, it's to do this other thing, but like it still costs money and we still need to put good business practice underneath it. So like the idea that we would want to create efficiencies is at the end of the day, the same reason why a regular business would want to, a regular for-profit business would want to create efficiencies. It's because we just want that end goal to be the best thing that it can possibly be. In our case, it's mission and vision. Whereas in the case of the for-profit sector, it's money. You know?
Sarah: And I also think of finding efficiencies as increasing your impact and transformation, right? So…
Sarah: Because then you're freeing up people to focus on what they really need to focus instead of getting distracted by all these, “oh my God, we have to keep overhead low.”, you know? Yeah. So I don't think they're mutually exclusive at all. And I agree with you. The other thing I want to have you talk about a little bit before we have to wrap up is this YouTube series that you're doing. Tell us about that.
Chris: Yeah. The Other One's Guide to Nonprofit Mediocrity. Yeah, so yeah, you know what happens? So we fiscally sponsor a bunch of smaller nonprofits and I consider it part of like my duty and honor to help a lot of young nonprofit leaders, young founders learn some of the ropes. And I mean, you know, we get reached out to cold frequently. I will preface this by saying like we do, I would say that fiscal agency is not only like the right thing for us to do because we have that good, robust back office infrastructure, it's also a source of revenue. And so we are, that is like kind of a background service that we're providing to our community or I would say offering to our community that is, I would say like, you know, if you run a nonprofit and you have a good back office infrastructure, like go do that. It's like, we will probably off of a very small percentage of like a variety of contracts and grants, small percentage, lots of stuff, we will probably make a million dollars in the 23, 24. Anyway, so we get a ton of people that reach out to us asking questions, how do I form a nonprofit? How do I, what does this mean? What does that mean? And so we decided to make this series in our way. We've made it like sort of funky and entertaining and hopefully enjoyable for people. But yeah, that's our YouTube channel. I think if you just go on YouTube and search “The Other One's Foundation”, it'll come up.
Sarah: Yeah, Chris dropped the link in the chat. So people can look there.
Chris: oh, cool.
Sarah: Yeah. But I just think it's great. And to me, it's just another way you're spreading kinship, right?
Sarah: So you're being a physical sponsor, you're doing this series so that nonprofits can learn from someone who's been through the, you know, the trenches with all this, like literally. It just blows my mind that you guys took a department of transportation, asphalt covered parking lot and have turned it into a community. So like, talk about transformation, right?
Chris: oh, indeed.
Sarah: So, yeah, I mean, it just, to me is you guys are just an example of how nonprofits should operate, like seriously. And I just really, really appreciate the work that you guys are doing in the world. And also you as a leader, as somebody who's really thinking deeply about this stuff all the time. And also course correcting when you need to. I mean, a lot of people get into a leadership position and they're like, “oh, I'm supposed to know.” And it cracks me up that you call yourself a dope. You're like one of the smartest people I know because you know what you don't know. And then you find the people who know it and surround yourself with them. That to me is genius.
Chris: Yeah, my friend, Alan Graham, who runs another homeless service nonprofit here in town called Mobile Loaves and Fishes. He says “Semper Gumby”, which I love because it's like, if you can't be flexible and you can't know what you don't know or acknowledge what you don't know, we have a great leadership team, man. And I don't think we have anybody that's really so stuck in their ways that they can't be a little bit Gumby when they need to be.
Sarah: Exactly, but that's what you model. Right? Yeah, that's what, yeah. So yeah, I just, I'm really excited about the work you guys are doing. I love you guys to death and I'm just excited for you guys are, I'm excited about who you are, but also where you're going. And I think you guys really stand out as a model for other nonprofits. So you guys check out The Other Ones Foundation, check out the YouTube channel. They've got lots of good info. And I just want to say thank you so much for joining me today.
Chris: Thank you for having me, Sarah.
Sarah: Of course.
Chris: Thanks for having me, Sarah. I really appreciate you. Bye everybody.
Thanks for tuning in. I'll be back in two weeks with another episode. Got topics you want me to cover? Organizations you want me to showcase? Let me know. Also, I'm here to help you revolutionize philanthropy at your nonprofit. If you want to talk about what that looks like, drop me an email.